Didn't vote because it should be an option, not forced. If either player has the option set, 0.1 per second per move is deducted.
It is obvious to me that some players have way better conditions than others. Looking at streams I've noticed that when premoving, some players barely use any time, while others are deducted a significant amount when they do. Not a fan of a 0.1 s deduction, but as I pointed out earlier, maybe storing premoves on the server could address the issue to some extent.
storing premoves on the server would create problems when trying to cancel/change them right before the opponent makes his move. i still like the idea, though.
Today I've watched chessbrahs' stream. Guess what?
He has a ping of 100 ~ 120 ms.
So back to the drawing board for the reasoning why they're so good in time scrambles :)
He has a ping of 100 ~ 120 ms.
So back to the drawing board for the reasoning why they're so good in time scrambles :)
In response to #87 - I played (and was streaming) one of my worst ever daily bullet tournament yesterday. I noticed it seemed much faster than usual but was also aware I was more tired than usual. I had just video annotated an amazing game by Wei Yi here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrmz4_qe0uo
I felt that my game quality was exceptionally poor - so poor in fact, I am hesitant to upload that one.
What is underneath the "thunderstorm" of this thread is actually it seems a clash of two different philosophies - which are:
1) The "Gamers" philosophy - stream on twitch ("Cool!") - use Gamer mouses.. Gamer setups... "Cool Cool Cool".... have stunts like using 15 seconds vs 60 and still win "Cool!" "Super-Cool!" oh yeah. The site can really build a base of new members from Twitch streaming! Sure it can.
2) The Classical Chess philosophy. This may seem duller but in old school terms and on established sites like the ICC, moves cost time. Even a premove costs time. Why incur this forced bottleneck when the system is so amazingly quick now. All of a sudden a thread about "evening out" the potential bottlenecks players have. Why?! The reason is that stronger players coming to the site, will often know their openings better, or get winning positions more frequently than the "gamers" - especially the subset of the "Gamers" with less classical skill. In the intersection of "Gamers" with "Classical skill" sits the Chessbrahs group of players, who have "Gamers advantage" comined with "Classical skill".
My concern is that most of the FMs, IMs and GMs in the world (especially over 30 years old!) are probably not hard-core "Gamers" and want to actually play great games of chess. Now you might think - oh wait, what about all the stunts for bringing in new people from platforms like Twitch.tv!? Well, the thing is, there are also other social networks were quality chess is often shared. No doubt my video of An absolutely insane immortal chess game by Wei Yi ! - "Game of the Decade" is Susan Polgar's tweet!" will get round the houses on Facebook, Youtube etc. I have never personally been particularly reliant on the gaming social network Twitch.tv to boost my channel - although I appreciate a giant like Jerry has done exceptionally well on Twitch.tv often streaming bullet tournaments with his usual entertaining commentary.
What I still think is the site risks being "stunted" by favouring in effect the "Gamers world" and philosophy. I myself have ordered a "Gamers mouse" and will be able to show any differences on stream. But as I have said - this might increase my personal advantage - but in the wider issue of general *fairness" for the "classical chess players", it seems the increment forced, will favour classical players - and if classical players come to the site, in fact there are other social networks and also of course chess sites of all kinds, which will be more interested in the bullet chess content.
If the bullet chess content becomes total *bullshit* based on 0 premove time games between say often two "gamers" who might not be that "classical chess player" strength, then the output of the bullet games is of less interest to a more serious classical chess audience as opposed to say a twitch.tv audience.
Occasionally - and I say very occasionally, I can simply beat the likes of Whybemad out of site, by playing really good moves. But this is like a 1 in 20 occurence. E.g. here: http://en.lichess.org/CiNPGdcY#2
This sort of game against who I consider mostly a "gamer" with some limited chess skill "Whybemad" is the exception rather than the rule. There are literally hundreds of game examples of me against WBM now where I have basically a decisive advantage and also time advantage in many cases, and have ended up losing on time. Of course you may say - well this is personal hatred - a personal bias, and nothing to do the site. I say in return, it actually on a wider perspective reveals essentially a discrimination against "classical chess players" in favour of "gamers" and "Gamer-technology".
Is the site really wanting to say that on bullet chess, you need to be a "Gamer" to be successful?! Isn't this a "chess site" - not another high-speed game on twitch.tv?!
Arnold Schwarzenegger was told apparently he would never be a great actor. He was too big - he sounded funny, etc. Yet it was exactly these *unique attributes* that set him apart from other bog-standard "actors" and he became one of the most successful actors ever - and is in one of my favourite film series of all time - the Terminator series.
We show "chess" on Twitch.tv- do we as a chess site want to be like every other high speed game?! Or do we want to show our uniquess about a game - a game with hundreds of years of chess history. A game where there are established masters - who may not necessarily be "Gamers". Don't we want to show to twitch.tv that chess has strategy, tactics, and other rich stuff which no other game there has?! This is why chess is unique. It seems by taking a gamers angle of 0 time increment, we are commoditising our classical chess game into yet another twitch.tv game, and selling it out too cheaply.
Cheers, K
I felt that my game quality was exceptionally poor - so poor in fact, I am hesitant to upload that one.
What is underneath the "thunderstorm" of this thread is actually it seems a clash of two different philosophies - which are:
1) The "Gamers" philosophy - stream on twitch ("Cool!") - use Gamer mouses.. Gamer setups... "Cool Cool Cool".... have stunts like using 15 seconds vs 60 and still win "Cool!" "Super-Cool!" oh yeah. The site can really build a base of new members from Twitch streaming! Sure it can.
2) The Classical Chess philosophy. This may seem duller but in old school terms and on established sites like the ICC, moves cost time. Even a premove costs time. Why incur this forced bottleneck when the system is so amazingly quick now. All of a sudden a thread about "evening out" the potential bottlenecks players have. Why?! The reason is that stronger players coming to the site, will often know their openings better, or get winning positions more frequently than the "gamers" - especially the subset of the "Gamers" with less classical skill. In the intersection of "Gamers" with "Classical skill" sits the Chessbrahs group of players, who have "Gamers advantage" comined with "Classical skill".
My concern is that most of the FMs, IMs and GMs in the world (especially over 30 years old!) are probably not hard-core "Gamers" and want to actually play great games of chess. Now you might think - oh wait, what about all the stunts for bringing in new people from platforms like Twitch.tv!? Well, the thing is, there are also other social networks were quality chess is often shared. No doubt my video of An absolutely insane immortal chess game by Wei Yi ! - "Game of the Decade" is Susan Polgar's tweet!" will get round the houses on Facebook, Youtube etc. I have never personally been particularly reliant on the gaming social network Twitch.tv to boost my channel - although I appreciate a giant like Jerry has done exceptionally well on Twitch.tv often streaming bullet tournaments with his usual entertaining commentary.
What I still think is the site risks being "stunted" by favouring in effect the "Gamers world" and philosophy. I myself have ordered a "Gamers mouse" and will be able to show any differences on stream. But as I have said - this might increase my personal advantage - but in the wider issue of general *fairness" for the "classical chess players", it seems the increment forced, will favour classical players - and if classical players come to the site, in fact there are other social networks and also of course chess sites of all kinds, which will be more interested in the bullet chess content.
If the bullet chess content becomes total *bullshit* based on 0 premove time games between say often two "gamers" who might not be that "classical chess player" strength, then the output of the bullet games is of less interest to a more serious classical chess audience as opposed to say a twitch.tv audience.
Occasionally - and I say very occasionally, I can simply beat the likes of Whybemad out of site, by playing really good moves. But this is like a 1 in 20 occurence. E.g. here: http://en.lichess.org/CiNPGdcY#2
This sort of game against who I consider mostly a "gamer" with some limited chess skill "Whybemad" is the exception rather than the rule. There are literally hundreds of game examples of me against WBM now where I have basically a decisive advantage and also time advantage in many cases, and have ended up losing on time. Of course you may say - well this is personal hatred - a personal bias, and nothing to do the site. I say in return, it actually on a wider perspective reveals essentially a discrimination against "classical chess players" in favour of "gamers" and "Gamer-technology".
Is the site really wanting to say that on bullet chess, you need to be a "Gamer" to be successful?! Isn't this a "chess site" - not another high-speed game on twitch.tv?!
Arnold Schwarzenegger was told apparently he would never be a great actor. He was too big - he sounded funny, etc. Yet it was exactly these *unique attributes* that set him apart from other bog-standard "actors" and he became one of the most successful actors ever - and is in one of my favourite film series of all time - the Terminator series.
We show "chess" on Twitch.tv- do we as a chess site want to be like every other high speed game?! Or do we want to show our uniquess about a game - a game with hundreds of years of chess history. A game where there are established masters - who may not necessarily be "Gamers". Don't we want to show to twitch.tv that chess has strategy, tactics, and other rich stuff which no other game there has?! This is why chess is unique. It seems by taking a gamers angle of 0 time increment, we are commoditising our classical chess game into yet another twitch.tv game, and selling it out too cheaply.
Cheers, K
@#95: isn't 100-120 ms really good?
I would be curious to know what KC's ping is
I would be curious to know what KC's ping is
#97 100-120 ms is decent and playable for chess.
KC had a ping of around 20-30 ms yesterday.
Point being: it's not the internet delay :-)
KC had a ping of around 20-30 ms yesterday.
Point being: it's not the internet delay :-)
#98 To try and clarify my post on the point of yesterday's daily bullet : I came 3rd in that daily bullet (a good result for me!) and was seemingly able to even put time pressure against Chessbrah's - winning one on position and nearly on time, and losing the other 3 or 4 on position - but I felt I forced him to win on position from his beserking in all games. Sometimes it happens I feel I am actually going to lose on time when he beserks.
I felt basically like a "gamer" for clarification with lower than usual classical chess skill - and was not happy from a chess perspective - which is why i am not keen to upload that one. I had loads of time wins myself from totally lost positions making full use of the zero premove system. I exploited the system to my advantage. That does not mean necessarily that I am happy doing so. The wins were "cheap".
I felt basically like a "gamer" for clarification with lower than usual classical chess skill - and was not happy from a chess perspective - which is why i am not keen to upload that one. I had loads of time wins myself from totally lost positions making full use of the zero premove system. I exploited the system to my advantage. That does not mean necessarily that I am happy doing so. The wins were "cheap".
When talking in terms of 'cheap' wins I must say I love a bargain. There is nowhere fair to draw a line on when its acceptable to flag and when someone should resign (just try to set parameters and you will see) so the 'fairest' option is always try to flag if you feel like it, resign if you want.
Back to the thread, I think it was said by chessbrah that whybemad is rated high on other sites that use the 0.1 settings so to continually use him as a reason why this would make the site better is invalid imo.
Overall, I would not mind either way (0.1 or none) but would be interested on what the lichess techies say about fairness as they know the code and therefore whether some have an advantage.
Back to the thread, I think it was said by chessbrah that whybemad is rated high on other sites that use the 0.1 settings so to continually use him as a reason why this would make the site better is invalid imo.
Overall, I would not mind either way (0.1 or none) but would be interested on what the lichess techies say about fairness as they know the code and therefore whether some have an advantage.
#100 that's the funny thing. A lichess developer (thibault) already commented:
"thibault 2 days ago #4
The player lag is 100% irrelevant, because 100% compensated.
Premove speed is the same for everybody."
"thibault 2 days ago #4
The player lag is 100% irrelevant, because 100% compensated.
Premove speed is the same for everybody."
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